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Plzrmeister 67M  
10069 posts
6/21/2015 2:50 pm

Remember the Civil War documentary by Ken Burns?

Saw the series and have the book.

There was that one terrific Civil War historian - What was his name?

Shelby Foote?

What was the quote he mentioned when a confederate soldier was ask why he was fighting?

He said, "Because you're here".

Did he own slaves or was he a white supremacist?

Not a slave owner - I can't speak to the white supremacy question.

What's your take on 2nd time's contention?

I understand and sympathize with it. I do the same for the other side of the coin.

Which is?

The symbol of region pride contention.

So both points of view can be logically argued and are valid?

I think so. Neither one is entirely right nor entirely wrong.


I suppose an American Indian could have the same argument with the American flag couldn't they?

I think one could make a very similar argument.

White supremacy over the Indians?

Pervasive thought as we slaughtered them.

See both sides of that coin too?

Yep.

Does anyone ever win one of these arguments?

It's an exercise in futility.

What about the Nazi flag?

By definition, they should be banned from the face of the earth.

A skinhead or neo-Nazi might argue.

I said it can be logically argued.

Make Women Female Again


Doc_Sonar 66M
24589 posts
6/21/2015 3:32 pm

No symbol, to me & mine, is more vulgar, offensive & symbolic of a longing for (or advocacy of) white supremacy...

Doc_Sonar

I advocate Simplicity, Patience & Compassion...to the extent that doing so won't threaten or harm My boundaries or Me. ~ Doc_Sonar


Breathe Deeply~
Peace


Doc_Sonar 66M
24589 posts
6/21/2015 3:34 pm

'Nuff said from me...

Appreciate you.

Doc_Sonar

I advocate Simplicity, Patience & Compassion...to the extent that doing so won't threaten or harm My boundaries or Me. ~ Doc_Sonar


Breathe Deeply~
Peace


IAmMichaelURKnot 62M
14380 posts
6/21/2015 6:06 pm

A seemingly minor, though important, detail if historical accuracy matters in this discussion: The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was not one of the national flags used by the Confederate States of America, nor did it represent the entire C.S.A. when carried into battles during the Civil War - common usage ( and Steve Chapman's opinion piece ) to the contrary. BTW: Chapman's "Confederate" flag was rectangular so it wasn't even an accurate reproduction of the square Battle Flag. The rectangular flag is a "faux Confederate" flag adopted as a symbol of the Confederacy by Neo-Confederates after the end of the Civil War.

I could be mistaken, but I doubt that Steve Chapman was present during discussions by members of the state commission responsible for planning South Carolina's observance of the 100th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War. For an interesting eyewitness account of the events that led to the flag being raised above the South Carolina State House, search the interwebs for "scpronet the day the flag went up". I won't provide any spoiler alerts.

I remember now.


IAmMichaelURKnot 62M
14380 posts
6/21/2015 9:53 pm

    Quoting  :

Context matters. "The rectangular flag is a "faux Confederate" flag adopted as a symbol of the Confederacy by Neo-Confederates after the end of the Civil War." By "faux Confederate" flag I mean that the flag was never the national flag of the C.S.A. although that is how the flag is presented in common usage.

The square Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia dates to December 1861. The Confederate Naval Jack used from 1861 to 1863 was a completely different design. The rectangular version of the Battle Flag was used as the Confederate Naval Jack from 1863 to 1865.

I attempted to be precise in my usage of terms as well as in my description of flags and symbols. I acknowledged and corrected errors I committed after I was made aware of those errors. I have no idea why a discussion of what was and wasn't a national flag of the C.S.A. becomes this complicated. The facts of the matter are easily verifiable. This isn't a matter of facts being open to interpretation. The C.S.A. used three successive national flags from 1861 to 1865. The square Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia as first used in December 1861 was not one of the national flags of the C.S.A.

I remember now.


IAmMichaelURKnot 62M
14380 posts
6/22/2015 8:30 am

    Quoting  :

It has become complicated due to a constant parsing of words. If we can't agree on what something is or isn't, based on easily verifiable historical facts ( as opposed to what someone wants to believe something is or isn't ), then we'll continue to talk in circles.

My point regarding the rectangular version of the Battle Flag is that it is portrayed as "The Confederate flag" which suggests that it was the national flag of the C.S.A. That was never the case during the existence of the C.S.A. no matter how many times the attempt has been made over the years to portray the Battle Flag as a national flag of the C.S.A. In the case of the later C.S.A. national flags, the incorporation of a smaller image of the square Battle Flag into the corner of a larger rectangular flag created a new C.S.A. national flag, not another version of the Battle Flag.

I've consistently referred to the rectangular version of the Battle Flag as a modified version of the original square Battle Flag, not as a "completely different design". The first Confederate Naval Jack, used from 1861 - 1863, was a completely different design than the second Confederate Naval Jack.( which is a rectangular version of the Battle Flag ) used from 1863 to 1865. The two Naval Jacks do not resemble each other at all.

These historical facts are easily verifiable online.

I remember now.


IAmMichaelURKnot 62M
14380 posts
6/22/2015 8:39 am

    Quoting  :

Thanks for reading the piece. I recall more nuance in the piece, but perhaps that's just me.

I remember now.


IAmMichaelURKnot 62M
14380 posts
6/22/2015 10:31 am

    Quoting  :

Thanks, I thought that might be the case. There are times I go back to read something I wrote and wonder if the message I attempted to convey is the message I actually conveyed.

I've seen the phrase "flags of the Confederacy" used. That phrase has a different connotation than the phrase "Confederate flags". I don't use the similar convention "U.S. flags" to collectively describe the flags of subordinate levels of government or the military in the U.S.A. I use the terms "U.S. flag" and "American flag" ( which I know makes some people cringe, but it is what it is ) to describe the national ( federal ) flag of the U.S.A. I attempt to describe any flag of a subordinate level of government or the military by its proper name ( or a close approximation ). I find that I avoid confusion when I take that approach.

I don't disagree with that description of the article or of the events of the time. I found the piece fascinating because it provided an eyewitness account of the discussions that took place among the members of the committee. That level of detail is rarely included in text books or in contemporary news reports.

A few of the minor points I found interesting were: that the original proposal called for the flag to be be removed after it had flown for one year over the South Carolina State House, that the flag had flown for nearly a year before the resolution to fly the flag was approved, and that the resolution omitted the one year limit. What seems to have been intended to be a limited act of defiance then took on a life of its own. Unintended consequences or planned long-term effects? I don't know. Regardless, the controversy continues to this day.

I remember now.


Doc_Sonar 66M
24589 posts
6/22/2015 7:38 pm

Love it...

Doc_Sonar

I advocate Simplicity, Patience & Compassion...to the extent that doing so won't threaten or harm My boundaries or Me. ~ Doc_Sonar


Breathe Deeply~
Peace


IAmMichaelURKnot 62M
14380 posts
6/22/2015 8:36 pm

    Quoting  :

I also think we are on the same page regarding much of this. I see it as a need for the people of this nation to acknowledge our history, learn from our past, assume collective responsibility for the current state of the nation, and work toward solutions to the issues that continue to plague our nation. Sounds easy when I type it out like that, but I realize how difficult it will be.

I remember now.


IAmMichaelURKnot 62M
14380 posts
6/25/2015 1:09 pm

    Quoting  :

I wonder if a less confrontational / less accusatory tone would diminish the reflexive defiant attitude and resistance to discussion that often occurs when this type of issue receives more public attention than usual.

Tangentially related: I just saw a thumbnail image on my home page of a 36 year old female VIP member from Newport, Rhode Island. In the photo she wears what appears to be either a bikini top or a halter top made from material with a Battle Flag pattern print. Coming soon to a beach near you?

I remember now.


IAmMichaelURKnot 62M
14380 posts
6/25/2015 3:34 pm

    Quoting  :

That wasn't a suggestion or an accusation. I really wonder if certain subsets would react differently to different approaches to the discussion. I know that I can become reflexively defensive if someone uses a confrontational or accusatory style or tone during a discussion. It happens. I've attempted to become more aware of the manner in which I react to others so discussions don't spiral into shouting matches.

One of the things I've been thinking about since you, James, and I ( along with others ) have been tossing around different ideas on these posts is whether the perceived tone of a post or comment triggers a more emotional response from people if they perceive the words to be an attack rather than an attempt to engage in discussion. The hardcore racist haters won't be swayed by a different approach. The "flag looks cool on my bikini and car" crowd might be more open to discussion if they're approached in a less confrontational manner. Some of the "Southern Pride" segments might or might not be more open to discussion. It's something I'll continue to think about. That's all.

Today is the first I've seen that image / profile on my home page. It probably caught my eye because we've been discussing the flag in the blogs. I know Newport, R.I. is a vacation / holiday destination. Not too far from my location, Saratoga Springs, N.Y. is a destination before and during the horse racing season. I've seen the Battle Flag displayed on clothing and vehicles during the meet in Saratoga. I doubt that those people would receive a warm welcome just 20 to 30 miles away in the neighborhoods I've called home ( and still visit ) in Albany, N.Y. and Schenectady, N.Y.

I remember now.


VovimBaghie2030 55M  
260 posts
7/17/2015 6:41 pm

When I lived in Florida I made a point of flying a large Confederate flag on my property. I did so, because it is generally true that those who object to that flag are assholes and I wanted to piss them off!



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